It's Impossible Not Be Cool In An Alloy V8 Powered '63 Skylark

"DailyTurismo" (thedailyturismo) 07/11/2014 at 14:34 • Filed to: daily turismo, buick

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In 1961 General Motors introduced three new cars that were the same except for a few external identifiers. The Buick Special, Oldsmobile F-85 and Pontiac Tempest all shared the same Y-body platform and were available with the aluminum block 215 cubic inch V8.

The Buick Special Skylark was an upgraded option, but the Skylark became its own model in 1962. Find this !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! currently bidding on ebay for $3,250 reserve-not-met with 3 days go go and buy-it-now of $10,500, located in Santa Monica, CA.

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The '63 Buick Skylark was unique in that it featured boxier sheet metal as compared to the '61/62 models, and '64 was an entirely new model. This '63 Skylark looks like a decent example and is covered in a nice coat of baby blue paint.

Under hood is the BOP (Buick, Olds, Pontiac) 215 V8, an all alloy engine with iron liners (a unique feature for the time) rated at 200 horsepower. A variation of this engine was the first turbocharged passenger car - the Oldsmobile Jetfire Turbo Rocket - and was also the basis for the Rover V8 and Buick 3.8L V6 that both lived well beyond their predecessor.

The interior looks decent in the photos; where in the world did they get those awesome venetian blinds for the rear window?

See another classic that just needs a new rear bumper for less? !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

Originally published as !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

on !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . Photo credits; ebay.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > DailyTurismo 07/11/2014 at 14:39

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Not surprised it's an auto, as the four-speeds are exceptionally rare. Not that it detracts from anything - a top trim Skylark, you'd expect to see with the (then) top trim trans.

TurboS60 > DailyTurismo 07/11/2014 at 15:16

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very nice looking car for the price, id rock the hell out of it!

fluxlinkages > DailyTurismo 07/11/2014 at 15:17

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all of this makes me want to watch My Cousin Vinny.

Jimmy Joe Meeker > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 07/11/2014 at 15:19

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Back in those days the AT was usually the top option for a car. The 4spd was kinda stuck in the middle above a base 3spd MT, or the 4spd was the base trans for upgraded versions/sub models.

Captain_Spadaro > DailyTurismo 07/11/2014 at 15:20

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What the fuck...that's not how you do sun blinds!

Crosskeeper > DailyTurismo 07/11/2014 at 15:22

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http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dodge-Othe…

Way more Jalop...If only I had a garage.

T off the New > DailyTurismo 07/11/2014 at 15:23

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Impossible not to think of this scene when I see a Skylark

K5ING > DailyTurismo 07/11/2014 at 15:42

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All three of those car were not really the same. The Tempest had a rear mounted transaxle and "rope drive" (flexible driveshaft) to improve weight distribution. Kind of radical at the time. From Wikipedia :

Despite sharing some of the Oldsmobile's sheet metal, the original Tempest featured an innovative drivetrain — a rear-mounted transaxle [3] coupled to a torque shaft arcing in a 3 in (76 mm) downward bow within a longitudinal tunnel — coupling the forward engine and rear transmission into one unit and eliminating vibration. [4] The arrangement, known as "rope drive", had been previously used in the 1951 Le Sabre concept car . [5]

The combination of the rear-mounted transaxle and the front-mounted engine gave the car very nearly an ideal 50/50 front/rear weight distribution, enabled four-wheel independent suspension, and eliminated the transmission floor hump in the front and lowered it in the rear as compared to a conventional layout, such as the front engine/front transmission used in the Tempest's Buick and Oldsmobile sister cars. [6]

JimEmery > DailyTurismo 07/11/2014 at 15:44

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If I remember correctly, that Buick 215 cu in. aluminum V8 was the basis for the Repco engines that Jack Brabham's team used to win the Formula 1 championship in 1966 & 67.

British Leyland bought the rights to the engine from GM and it was (still is?) the engine that BL used in the Range Rover, Rover sedans and the Triumph TR8.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Jimmy Joe Meeker 07/11/2014 at 15:46

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It would still be a few years before four-speeds took off, and as the whole light/fast small car paradigm was only then developing for US makers ('63 - first year for the Falcon Sprint, and in '62 mid-year the add of a turbo to the Corvair) the four-speed was not yet definitively the performance choice *in* such a car. How could it be? Even the Olds Turbo Jetfire didn't have a four-speed (though the Corvair did).

K5ING > T off the New 07/11/2014 at 15:47

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"What's a ute?"

Prophet of hoon > JimEmery 07/11/2014 at 15:50

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Mickey Thompson was behind that effort (Indy) and was quite competitive

T off the New > K5ING 07/11/2014 at 15:51

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"The two hhhWat?"

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Jimmy Joe Meeker 07/11/2014 at 15:52

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I should add, I knew that the four-speeds were rare because the same bolt pattern (Rover V8) needs such a bellhousing as they were equipped with - to use with then-contemporary T-10s, the T5, or any number of other transmissions, as the three-speed model is drastically different. Anybody who wants a 215 powered hot rod or Rover hot rod needs either a lot of adapting or a custom bellhousing, because the four-speeds just don't/didn't exist in any numbers.

Prophet of hoon > DailyTurismo 07/11/2014 at 15:52

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Nicely written overview. There were some differences between the Olds and the Buick 215 (such as 5 head bolt vs. 4 per cylinder for the Buick). Of course, as someone else mentioned, the rear suspension was different as well. What most don't realize is the Corvair shared its platform with these cars - which is what got them in trouble with Nader because it unbalanced the car - still, by the next generation that problem was solved; but as is sadly normal with GM, once they screw up the initial launch, all the rest is guilty by association - even though, they're not (case in point, the Fiero or even the Vega) subject to the headline-leading problem (handling - Corvair, iron lined motors -Vega, fires - Fiero, 5.7 Diesel motor... which, amazingly that reputation carried over to the 6.2L diesel, even though it wasn't even the same manufacturer of the motor).

Hectic > DailyTurismo 07/11/2014 at 15:55

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A friend of mine put one of these in a TR7. It was a good fit.

ninjagin > DailyTurismo 07/11/2014 at 15:58

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Looks great. The BIN price is pretty close to what it's worth.

alan > DailyTurismo 07/11/2014 at 15:59

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the rear window blinds are just too awesome!

Jorge Milian > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 07/11/2014 at 16:02

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Automatics were the better choice in those days, to help keep the boost lag at bay.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Jorge Milian 07/11/2014 at 16:08

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True, but it's perverse that the Olds (turbo and not) couldn't be had with a four-speed, whereas a turbo Corvair could.

I probably did it > Prophet of hoon 07/11/2014 at 16:10

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You're close.

The Corvair's rear suspension was the issue. It used swing arms like in the Beetle. The unbalanced part was because it had the engine in the back.

The Vega problems were because the cylinders didn't have liners. People didn't maintain the cooling system and if you overheated it even a little bit the pistons scored the bores.

The Fiero fire problem was grossly overexaggerated. The stopped selling it because there was no market for a 2 seat car.

The Old's Diesel had head bolt issues that were eventually fixed.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > JimEmery 07/11/2014 at 16:11

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The classic Rover V8 is discontinued now, although specialty makers are still turning some out. It did have some flaws that became magnified over time, later goofing with the engine notwithstanding, but it's a solid basis for a lot of monkeying now that it has 50 years for people to have tampered with it.

I probably did it > K5ING 07/11/2014 at 16:12

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The Tempest was the only one with a 4cyl also. It was half of the Pontiac V8, literally was built on the same production line as the V8 and shared 98% of its parts.

I probably did it > DailyTurismo 07/11/2014 at 16:14

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Never mind...I be wrong. I should shut up now...

The 215 V8 wasn't the basis for the Buick V6. The 300cid Buick V8 was the basis for the Buick V6.

Dream Theater of the Absurd > I probably did it 07/11/2014 at 16:34

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Yup, basically the right bank of a Poncho 389 - but unfortunately without balance shafts.

Dream Theater of the Absurd > JimEmery 07/11/2014 at 16:36

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You're not far off. Repco based their F1 V8 on the Oldsmobile block, and while they designed OHC heads for it a lot of the components were off the shelf parts. It was never the most powerful engine on the grid, but it was compact, light, and reliable.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > I probably did it 07/11/2014 at 16:38

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That's a good start on the Vega problems, which only continued with the cast iron head taking away from the weight improvements of the aluminum (and asking for head gasket trouble), some other points of mechanical flimsiness, and comically awful rust-proofing that failed to adequately account for air bubbles, leaving Vegas on the lots with fenders rusting from the inside out.

I've always considered it to be an ingenious car - but one that demonstrated how an engineer's reach often exceeds his grasp.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > I probably did it 07/11/2014 at 16:41

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...which is a distinction without a difference, as the 300 grew from the 215. Same bore spacing and a bunch of common and similar parts.

Apropos of that, I need to find out if any 3800s used the same conrods as the 300 - I need 300 conrods for a Rover V8 project.

BadLag > DailyTurismo 07/11/2014 at 16:51

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I owned a 1963 Olds F-85 convertible with a 330 CID + Quadrajet carb. Great car, one of the ones I wish I kept. I was driving up north to visit my girlfriend, I had the top down, it started raining. The roof needed some help when down by pulling up on it, I was alone, I could not hold the switch AND pull up on the roof. There was an egg lifter in the glovebox (don't ask, I only had the car 3 days) and I managed to prop it against the switch and jump in the back and yank on the roof till the hydraulics took over.

2 weeks later I loaned it to a "friend" and he smashed into a light standard and I never fixed it, still should have kept it though. Because ragtops!

SerialThriller > DailyTurismo 07/11/2014 at 17:00

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The Buick Special, Oldsmobile F-85 and Pontiac Tempest all shared the same Y-body platform

Isn't Y-body the Corvette?

JimEmery > Dream Theater of the Absurd 07/11/2014 at 17:03

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Thanks for catching - I checked the wikipedia article after posting, and it made the same point you're making - there is a common misconception that the Repco block is based on the Buick block, but that is not quite accurate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repco_V8#…

DailyTurismo > Prophet of hoon 07/11/2014 at 17:04

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How very true — these cars dated from a time when the subdivisions at GM did a surprising amount of engineering, instead of just repackaging. And GM does tend to have a habit of killing their cars once they get good- Fiero had proper suspension in 87 iirc. You can probably add the Cobalt SS and the Solstice/Sky twins to that list as well.

DailyTurismo > I probably did it 07/11/2014 at 17:06

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The 4cyl Tempest, you mean this?

Cool car for the time and created when John DeLorean ran Pontiac.

DailyTurismo > fluxlinkages 07/11/2014 at 17:07

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"cause of the paw-z-traction."

DailyTurismo > SerialThriller 07/11/2014 at 17:08

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GM has used the Y designation twice, first on these TempLarkAss and now on the Vette/XLR.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_Y_plat…

DailyTurismo > K5ING 07/11/2014 at 17:09

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Herman Munster was epic in that role.

SerialThriller > DailyTurismo 07/11/2014 at 17:29

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Thanks. Do you know what the Corvette platform designation was before the C4?

Mustang 'DontHitTheCrowd' GT > DailyTurismo 07/11/2014 at 17:33

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Awwwwghghghhg.

So freaking beautiful.

Prophet of hoon > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 07/11/2014 at 18:13

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As there are few Japanese cars around from the same era (because they have wholly rusted to dust), I disagree with your assessment. As for the steel sleeved 4 cyl. motor, if you overheat anything it will break - and it was no better or worse than what was available at the time if you were shopping for a crapbox car.

Prophet of hoon > I probably did it 07/11/2014 at 18:18

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no market for a 2 seater? ummm, the Miata came out right at the demise of the Fiero - and I've heard it did okay (that hissing you hear is the Miata fanboys). I also heard that the Corvette did okay.... probably was that the Fiero was a Miata hp in a Corvette (weight) body... the fire was simply the last nail in the coffin.

As for close... if you take all the weight out of the front (and the car's suspension was designed for weight in the front), and put it in the back, the understeer you get can be entertaining.... the problem was the design - that GM cheaped out on developing a new chassis and used parts-bin stuff. Case which proves my point, one of the fastest cars on the Silver State challenge was a Corvair (it understeered off the course, ironically) however, it was far better than the original version because the motor was in the passenger seating area - thus making it a mid-engine sports car - rather than a Porschendulum (new word, but I'm going with it)

DailyTurismo > SerialThriller 07/11/2014 at 18:51

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Not sure — the C4 and later where known externally as Y because that is the 4th digit in the VIN, but the C3 and earlier cars had numeric only vins. http://corvettec3.ca/vin.htm

The F, X, Y body vs platform is another source of geeky discussions among Chevy guys that I don't understand completely. If only someone would make a flowchart...where is the Torch?

Michael J Posner > I probably did it 07/11/2014 at 19:05

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The Corvair's suspension was never an issue. The NHSTA proved in its final report (albeit years too late) that Nader was grossly wrong and the 1960 Corvair handled as wel as contemporary cars with front engine rear drive. Improvements in 1961 solved any "issues" that Nader complained about. Also, the Corvair failure was far less about Nader and a lot more about the Mustang which killed on price + v8 performance. that said I still love my 1965 Corvair.

97Spyder > I probably did it 07/11/2014 at 21:17

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Yup, I wondered how Buick created a 231cid V6 engine by cutting off 2 cylinders from a 215cid V8. I owned 2 Olds Starfires w/the 231 (3.8-L) V6, one a early production '75 that had the Buick nose (the Olds front bumper wasn't available until a few months later) and then a '78 with the "waterfall nose" similar to the Olds Cutlass. There was a big difference between the two engines, as the '75 was before the split-journal crankshaft was made std in late '77. Idled a LOT smoother.

Ramblin Rover - The Vivisector of Solihull > Prophet of hoon 07/11/2014 at 21:24

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Your response doesn't match well with what I recall. It is true that many Japanese cars of the same period had minimal to no survival of rust. The specifics of the Vega, however, are that a chemical dip was used prior to paint which did not contact portions of the body. Despite being vaunted as a rust treatment, there were portions of the body which IIRC did not receive proper phosphating/priming as a consequence and had poor to no paint adhesion, causing rust.

Also, I was talking about an iron*head* on an aluminum block, which is what the Vega possessed. Not steel sleeves, which it did not. It used an iron head due to issues with cracking in the initial Al head, and use of the iron head threw away any weight gain to be had by not sleeving the block, and then some. If it had worked as intended, it would have been phenomenally light and cheap to produce, as well as durable - but the only thing which survived contact with reality was "cheap".

You state that it was no better or worse than what was available in other crapboxes, but I heartily disagree. The slant-six is a thousand times better as a crapbox engine, and the Kent was significantly better as well. If every Vega engine had been crack-optimized, equipped with better cooling, and maintained properly, it would be held aloft as a marvel of engineering - but it fell short. This is undisputed.

Prophet of hoon > Ramblin Rover - The Vivisector of Solihull 07/11/2014 at 22:03

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slant 6 didn't get as good mpg as the 4 cyl... only reason I know this, my neighbor had a 300,000 mile Dart - but I had him in mpg, every time. Problem with the slant 6 was emissions - which is what also killed the hemi.

As for the iron/aluminum - let's talk about VW motors in the 70s... as I said, they were all the same. Hondas lived, but smoked after 100k and heaven forbid you removed a vacuum hose... cars were totaled if someone removed the vacuum hoses, VWs hated their heads, Toyotas came with factory rust and fragile transmission. Datsuns were crap - they were the Japanese Mopar when it came to build quality. BMWs were spendy and temperamental. Mercedes diesels were slow and indestructible; too bad they didn't build a gas powered car that was indestructible - the closest they came was slow and expensive... still - all of them had their good points.

Also, there was a shining star in the Vega world - Cosworth - who showed what could have been (and just how far GM missed the mark)

And I'm ignoring the Pinto...

Prophet of hoon > Ramblin Rover - The Vivisector of Solihull 07/11/2014 at 22:06

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But let's get back to something we agree upon... how about them Rovers? :-)

I'm putting a 300 TDI in a LR D2 (with 5 speed)

Ramblin Rover - The Vivisector of Solihull > Prophet of hoon 07/11/2014 at 22:17

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Quite a good plan. Hearkening back to the aforementioned bombproof Benz diesels, we've got a 109 five-door Series II at my place we're going to put an OM617 in probably some time this year. The only special requirements are a sufficiently large dish flywheel drilled for Rover clutch, and an aluminum adapter to bolt the two together in place of either's original adapter ring. At that point, it's just a question of making mounts, having an oillite bushing turned, and modding the oil pan, and one has a turbodiesel safari wagon. Not violently over the original torque capabilities of the trans, but revs much higher...

My other project is taking a Rover 4.2 - an odd bird with an intermediate stroke crank designed to be a diesel - and rebuilding it for performance before stuffing in a '63 Ranchero. Next to no weight gain in the process, more than triple the power, and better weight balance.

Prophet of hoon > Ramblin Rover - The Vivisector of Solihull 07/12/2014 at 00:57

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Neat projects, you sound as eclectic in your choices as my stuff.

my dad put countless 215 Buick motors in Vegas - so to say I've been around them would be quite the understatement (my 1st car was 62 Buick that I utterly hated - but that's another story). He's bought the 4.0 from my D2 to put in his Sunbeam Tiger (it's not a real Tiger) because his original plan was a 215 Buick... nice symmetry IMO

I considered the OM617 - friend of mine is building one to drive at Bonneville - then a 4BTD (Isuzu - though not enough letters, IIRC) and the 4BT... but in the end, I liked the potential of the 300 and the "bolt-in"(ish) nature of the swap.

emjayay > DailyTurismo 07/12/2014 at 01:31

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Very nice except for no AC, but for those who don't know, the original '61-62 was far prettier. Quite cute actually, unlike the ungainly '63. Notice the identical greenhouse, so the '63 is only bigger and trying to look grown up but no roomier.

ranwhenparked > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 07/12/2014 at 10:04

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I know MCT Technologies took over production when JLR discontinued it, but I don't know if they're still building it or not.

I probably did it > Prophet of hoon 07/12/2014 at 10:22

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There was no market for that kind of 2 seater, which is why Honda and Toyota didn't keep selling theirs very long after the Fiero.

The only Fiero's that had any kind of fire issue was the 84's, and it was under 100 total that caught on fire.

The Miata, as you know, is a convertible. Completely different market segment. The Corvette is a completely different market segment.

I probably did it > Michael J Posner 07/12/2014 at 10:24

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I wasn't trying to knock the Corvair. I absolutely love them. You have to admit that the early swing axle equipped Corvairs without the compensation spring setup handled a little different than the later ones, and a little different than a conventional car in the 60's.

Prophet of hoon > I probably did it 07/12/2014 at 10:24

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I'm agreeing with you, there was no market for a slow, heavy 2 seater. Worst part of the Fiero was the inability to add ridiculous power levels.

I probably did it > Prophet of hoon 07/12/2014 at 12:38

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The GT's weren't slow for the times. They weren't all that heavy either, about 2600lbs. They also outsold the CRX and MR2 every year they were made. You aren't really agreeing with me.

EricD > JimEmery 07/12/2014 at 13:10

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Just happen to be reading the book Can-Am by Pete Lyons. The Olds 215 was one of (if not) the first V-8 swap into a mid-engine configuration, usually replacing the 4 cylinder Climax. Twice the cylinders with less weight. Add come c.i. and they were getting 300+ h.p. This was back in 1964 or so, and eventually lead to the basis of the Group 7 Can-Am "Big Banger" cars.

RalphieDC > I probably did it 07/13/2014 at 00:13

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The CRX and then the Del Sol were sold until '98, the MR2/MRS stayed on the market until 2007 - without a convertible option until '99. 10-20 years is a long time!

I probably did it > RalphieDC 07/14/2014 at 07:50

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I should have specified in the USA. Global sales are quite different.

Maybe if the Fiero had been a global car like the CRX and MR2 it would have been kept around. Even Honda and Toyota had to make their cars into convertibles (sort of with Honda) to justify selling them. And where are they now?